SaaS Stories
SaaS Stories is my not-so-secret quest to learn what it truly takes to succeed in the world of SaaS—and I’m inviting you along for the ride! I have the pleasure of sitting down with brilliant minds and industry trailblazers to explore their journeys, uncovering the secrets behind their growth, the gaps they spotted in the market, and what really drives them.
It’s not all smooth sailing—there are challenges, unexpected turns, and moments of reflection where they share what they’d love to change about their journey. Think of it as a candid, insider’s look into the world of SaaS, with just the right amount of curiosity, empathy, and wit.
Join me as I dive deep, selfishly soak up all the insights, and hopefully share a little inspiration with you along the way—one SaaS story at a time.
SaaS Stories
Harnessing Authentic Intelligence for business success with forensic fraud researcher, Jan Mielke Schwartz
Imagine a world where your mental, emotional, and spiritual strengths come together to shape the life & business you truly want. In this episode, we’re joined by the remarkable Jan Mielke-Schwartz, a trailblazer in forensic fraud research who started her career as an aspiring family therapist. Jan shares her powerful concept of "Authentic Intelligence"—a blend of IQ, EQ, and SQ (spiritual intelligence)—that has guided her in exposing crime and uplifting communities in Ohio.
She also gives us a sneak peek into her upcoming book, "Authentic Intelligence" offering fresh insights on how to harness your inner strengths for personal and professional transformation.
Ever wondered how different forms of intelligence can shape your life and business? Jan dives into the importance of integrating these intelligences to enrich our purpose and deepen our connection with the world around us. She explains how aligning your mental, emotional, and spiritual energies can not only empower you but also create a positive ripple effect in your life.
Navigating complex human behavior is a key to business success, and Jan shares strategies for leveraging emotional intelligence to build more empathetic, customer-centric businesses. From managing difficult personalities to fostering a culture of care, her wisdom provides a roadmap for sustainable growth and a harmonious workplace.
Welcome everybody to another episode of SaaS Stories. Today I'm joined by Jan Milkey-Schwartz, all the way from Ohio, and this is really exciting because it's a very different episode we're talking about today. We're moving away from all the intricacies of SaaS and how to you know, code, develop, market and we're actually diving into the psych, which I think is very important to scaling and growing a business. Jan, welcome to the show, so excited to have you.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm so happy to be with you and your listeners.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Well, first question for you now. You were involved in forensic fraud research as as as the beginning. Tell me how you got into that, what drew you to this field? And I believe you have an upcoming book as well that dives into some of those stories as well. So tell us all about you and all about that thank you.
Speaker 2:Well, after I completed my postdoctoral internship, I relocated to Northeast Ohio to marry my husband and I was very excited about opening a family therapy clinic, since I was trained to be a family psychologist and this had been a long-term goal of mine. I worked with criminal kids and their families at a residential treatment facility, so I was fresh with awareness about criminal patterns. So, to my great surprise, when I arrived in this community, I began to hear very dark secrets. When here I had just left a world of these concerns and so many people wanted to share information with me at social events and I don't mean just one social event it became a regular situation where someone was pulling me to the side, knowing that, because of my background and training, that I would keep confidence you keep their confidence and abide by confidentiality, even though I didn't need to do that. I would do that as a friend. But it got very intense and I was circled at different events. Authorities or people who were leaders in the community would be circling around to see if they could hear the conversations and just about that time I was getting very dark, sinister looks toward me and security incidents began to happen, such as our electricity wires were cut off when I would return home. There were all kinds of situations happening. People are I could go on and on and I knew that it was building to a level of seriousness company chairman of the board, his two sons and their mafioso that I knew. The situation was beyond what would be considered something acceptable or normal or something that could be ignored. It was a 25-minute conversation, a very terse conversation, and I stood up, my 5'7 inches total and my very, very high heels, and I looked them squirrelly in the eye and answered them and addressed them in equally terse terms, but fair terms, a fair-toned voice. But they wanted to know what I was doing in their community and what family I was representing, and this, to me, was well.
Speaker 2:It was time for me to take this seriously and I needed to put aside efforts to open my family therapy clinic and start doing some research. And start doing some research. And what I discovered bothered me greatly and I knew I needed to do the right thing. And when I had enough information, I reached out to the authorities and, interestingly, the documentation was extremely important to state and federal officials and soon I was regularly sharing large numbers of boxes of data. Now one may wonder how I stepped into all of this intuitiveue and to manage the seriousness of it and the security issues that I have nine pages of incidents, by the way. So one may wonder how do you manage all of this and still channel yourself into a helpful, a spirit of helpfulness? Well, I wasn't aware personally that I was doing anything different, but as I began through the years to reflect on some conversations, I want to share them with you and your listeners, because they may have experienced someone like this too.
Speaker 2:These conversations hinted that I was working a little differently from others, and the first one came during my exit interview at the residential treatment facility and my supervisor asked what I felt it was that I did with the criminal kids and their families that impacted them so greatly, and I responded with well, I truly love those kids and their families. And she smiled, but her face indicated that, jan, I think there's a little bit more to this, jan, I think there's a little bit more to this. The second moment came a few years later, during a conversation with some federal agents, and they asked me very seriously how is it that you do your work? How does every project you bring to us turn into a case and this time I responded with I have eyes that see, I have a sixth sense. We're leading into that intuitive element.
Speaker 2:But the third conversation came when I was promoting my first book Last Summer with Oscar and this book was so hard to write because it detailed the miracles, the joys and the sorrows of our golden retrievers to post creative tips on my Facebook page, and many of my wonderful Facebook friends began to enjoy them.
Speaker 2:It was during a conversation with a friend who was also a former Associated Press Bureau Chief in a major New York, in a major American city, where he asked me how I was coming up with all these tips that everyone was enjoying, and what came out of me was that, well, dan, imagine three interrelated circles the top representing IQ, or mental intelligence.
Speaker 2:Beside it is a circle that represents EQ, or emotional intelligence, and below it is a circle representing SQ, or spiritual intelligence. The area common to all three circles is where I find my knowing. Now. I said this, tim, just as a matter of fact. We were having coffee and he said to me Jan, you write that down, that's your next book. And I did write it down, and that area common to all three circles is what I now refer to as authentic intelligence or AI plus. So my new book that I have written, authentic Intelligence how to Use your Mental, emotional and Spiritual Gifts to Create the Life and World you you want introduces the concept of three interrelated circles and the concept of authentic intelligence, ai plus thank you so much for that story.
Speaker 1:You're such a good storyteller and I can tell by just just you know what you've told me. It does sound like you have a natural gift for reading people and, I suppose, finding clues and really just um reading the room as well, and I'd love, um, I love that you defined IQ, eq and SQ for us as well. That was one of my questions. What did I actually mean? I knew EQ was emotional intelligence, but I wasn't sure about the other two. I'd love to learn more from you about how you apply authentic intelligence in professional situations. So, as an example, how can leaders and CEOs and business owners and startup founders, how can all those people apply authentic intelligence not just to their professional lives but also their personal lives?
Speaker 2:Well, may I go back and do a little bit more of an explanation of each one of the intelligences.
Speaker 2:Please yes, before I share, I want to make sure that I'm leaving everyone with a sense of understanding, one that satisfies me that I'm doing my job of teaching. We're most likely familiar with IQ, or mental intelligence, which we know is linked to our ability to understand complex ideas, to adapt effectively to the environment, to learn from experiences, to reason, to overcome obstacles by thinking things through, and so on. Okay, that's IQ, and we all do those things differently in different situations and different stages of our lives. I just want to add that Emotional intelligence, or EQ, refers to the ability to identify and manage our emotions, as well as the emotions of others. This concept has been around for a long time, dated all the way back to Aristotle, and it involves five categories Developing self-awareness we sure hear a lot about that today, don't we?
Speaker 2:Yes, self-regulation, controlling our emotions. Motivation what are we motivated about? What do we want? Maybe our employer wants to motivate us? We can do it from many angles. Empathy Can we understand? Do we want to relate to how another person feels? Do we want to walk in their shoes? How quickly can we empathize with others? Is it important to empathize with others? Absolutely, and valuing the ability to have compassion and empathy is another component of it. And then the fifth is social skills, and some people have not have had the chance that others have had to develop social skills because of the home they came from or the school they attended. But there is a yearning within all of us to to keep advancing and developing our intelligences.
Speaker 2:Now, spiritual intelligence Spiritual intelligence or SQ, is based on an underpinning of spirituality, which is different from being a religious person. I want to emphasize that because it's two different things. There are two key people I want to mention and they've written a book. Their names are Dana Zohar and Ian Marshall, and their book Spiritual Intelligence, no-transcript. Sq allows us to be creative. It isn't just EQ that helps us become creative, to change the rules boy and to alter situations in our broken world. This is very important. It is the soul's intelligence.
Speaker 2:Now to AI plus or authentic intelligence, and this refers to a very special intelligence. Once again, let's review the three interrelated circles that illustrate how mental intelligence, iq, emotional intelligence, eq and spiritual intelligence converge. Maybe your listeners are now already drawing them right in front of themselves, saying, yes, I'm seeing how this works. Authentic intelligence is the area common to all three and, importantly, it's the convergence of all three intelligences. That creates within us a highly capable energy field, and that's where the best of ourselves is stored. It's what we can draw upon, it's what we can rely on to revitalize us and to help us, and we need it to thrive.
Speaker 1:Amazing. I'm definitely very fascinated by SQ. I think this is one where I'm certainly lacking. I very much have focused on EQ, a little bit on IQ now that you've defined it, but spiritual, yeah, this is definitely something I think a lot of us could work on, and the way you defined that it made me think. Perhaps this is the one that kind of gives you the purpose in life or really the motivation in life to do what you're doing. Would you say that's a fair assessment?
Speaker 2:Well, see, you are already taking us from EQ when you're saying motivation and going into purpose. Do you see how the human being is? So? We're created to just go from one circle to the next and to keep feeding each area and to nurture each area. It is and it's exciting. It is and it's exciting. It's a whole new way of thinking about our world, our day, how we are living our life Absolutely. And there's so many ways that we can begin to become more spiritual people.
Speaker 2:Someone like me has been spiritual since, oh, the earliest of my days, because I was. I had such extraordinary, loving, spiritual elementary teachers. Other people may say well, I'm interested in it. How do I begin? Well, you know, the simplest, most enjoyable way to begin may be to put aside time for a long walk in the woods, or just even going out in your backyard and looking up and noticing the clouds, noticing the sky, noticing, counting the trees that you have there, beginning to look at them and noticing them as if they're new friends.
Speaker 2:It's a whole new way of developing a relationship with nature. That's a good way to get the birds, you know, the groundhogs, all the little things that come our way that we find so precious that enrich us, the deer, we feed our deer and our lives are always enriched spiritually and emotionally by what they bring and the lives that they share with us. So those are just some ways of opening up possibilities to kick off and to be interested in growing more spiritual. It isn't the same thing as saying, well, come on, let's set the alarm for 630, because church starts at 8. That's another thing. Okay, going to church is another experience and, yes, people who go to church may also be deeply spiritual, but you can be spiritual and not go to church, because many people feel that being outside, uh and with nature is also, uh, being in a church, it's nature, is its own cathedral.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm very glad that you said that, because I've always said nature is my religion. I absolutely agree. Every time I go out for a walk and just you practice, just being in awe is how I usually define it like just be amazed by, like you said, the clouds, the trees, the animals, and if you can do that, I think it definitely. Uh, you can definitely feel spiritual. Um, for the founders that are listening right now and I suppose that you know all the listeners really what's the benefits of these circles? So why should they work on their spiritual intelligence? How can that help them become more resilient and just lead better companies?
Speaker 2:I love this question. I would say the first thing that I would do first of all, that these three interrelated circles will bring about the best performance. We can apply it to the individual level, we can apply it to a system, we can apply it to a corporation, we can apply it to an entity corporation, we can apply it to an entity. We just have to remember to ourselves that we no longer can just perform out of one of the circles, because if we want the optimal which is what I want for you and I'm sure you want for your everyone you know and every company you know one you know and every company you know, and I'm echoing that so we need to begin with some basic steps, such as creating a comprehensive program to help your founders and employees and teams grow in awareness of our treasure of intelligences. See we, first of all, if we're going to bring about a new way of moving in the business or a new way of operating as a family, or a new way of living as an individual, we first have to understand wait a minute, okay, this lady's talking I'm getting it now about these three circles. She's now referring to these four intelligences as a treasure of intelligences, and it is. But we have to have everyone be thinking, oh my goodness, my life is no longer the same because I now have. I'm not just stuck, I am just beginning new and fresh at this moment, because everything in each circle, as it connects to the other, makes the whole thing fresh and new, and if I keep feeding each with awareness, with activities that nurture and develop the skills we are starting to blossom and grow in each one of the intelligences. So business leadership, though, needs to become educated first. Okay, they have to sell this by their attitude, excuse me, by their enthusiasm, by saying, oh my goodness, I can tackle this whole new year in a new way, instead of always worrying about who I'm competing with. Absolutely. This is exactly the gift of this mindset these three interrelated circles. It's a whole fresh mindset. It is a whole new freedom on life, where you are going to move into areas and thrive in areas where you had never even had a skill before. So they have to be educated first, and I would suggest a good beginning one, and maybe many of your leaders already knows about Daniel Goleman's books on emotional intelligence. His are a great way to begin, and it was his groundbreaking book, emotional Intelligence, why it Matters More Than IQ, that was published in 1995. It was his book, this book, that opened the world's eyes to this topic, and he has many books about applying these concepts in business.
Speaker 2:Okay, so then business. Okay, so then then begin to educate your employees and coworkers about the three interrelated circles, for example. We know that some people call it a Venn diagram. Okay, call it whatever you want. I call it the three interrelated because of how I view things from the emotional realm of relationships. But have those circles start appearing on bulletin boards.
Speaker 2:Or maybe you know, when you're having a workforce development class or a team meeting saying, hey, did you guys hear about this? You know? Hey, come on over here. I want you to know there's this new way of thinking about intelligence and a mindset to begin fresh. This is it. Make it into a fun game, because it is. We need to help everyone see that we must feed each one of our intelligences to perform at our best level and, above all, we need to teach newcomers to this area of thought that our intelligences Stimulation, not just social media, phone, television, telephone conversations. We're talking about the exact activities that feed the intelligences. So it's exciting. It's opening up all new things in addition to the things that we love doing, and the movies that we love and the TV programs, our phone, our Instagram, and so on and so forth. This is all beyond that, but above all, joanne, I want to emphasize that companies need to create a culture that values competing with yourself and connecting with others.
Speaker 1:I love that. I couldn't agree more. And what good timing as well. I think you know, you kind of said it, I think a lot of us are just absolutely you know. I think a lot of our time goes into social media and these little smartphones that we have in our pockets, them, and I think that's why there's a growing anxiety in the world as well. So I think coming back and recognising these are three intelligences to focus on can certainly help with that. Coming back to emotional intelligence in particular, you mentioned the word empathy there as being part of that circle. I'm curious how can that play a role in building strong, customer-centric businesses, which I think is what founders need to do in order to scale and grow for a long time?
Speaker 2:Oh, you hit the nail on the head, because emotional intelligence plays the starring role here and EQ once again I will emphasize it involves developing self-awareness, self-regulation, motivation, empathy and social skills. So in building strong, customer-centric businesses, we want to motivate our customers, we want to be empathic with our customers and we want them to have fun developing social skills along the way. And it's, above all, reading the customer and reading the business and understanding what are you ready to do? How well can you relate, how well can you empathize with what your customer is going through right now? Where are your customers social skills, what is their way of interacting with their friends and their family? And then, building on that awareness, see how it all works together.
Speaker 2:So, in meetings, where leadership board members start saying, okay, now listen, this may be something that we can contemplate. Let's put aside time to have a couple of hours on a Friday afternoon or a Wednesday afternoon and, instead of just going through the bottom line and where we're standing in black or red, let's put aside time to think about how well we know and understand and can relate to our customers. And you watch to see what happens in the room, because all of a sudden there are going to be thoughts coming from people saying, well, I don't really know, because I don't really know the customers that well, and someone else may say, well, my cousin says that we should be doing this better, and then going around the table, inviting authentic conversation, inviting with all thrilled hearts and minds and voices, inviting a new climate, a new environment for discussion that's authentic and exciting about where this can take off.
Speaker 1:So, yes, EQ plays the stirring role? No for sure. And I think leadership teams definitely. Sometimes, you know, as they grow to that position, they sometimes become disconnected from who is our customer actually. And this is why, you know, when we do customer profiling, we want to speak to marketing, we want to speak to sales, we want to speak to customer service, customer success, because they're the ones dealing with the customer on an ongoing basis and I think the customer changes as the business changes and evolves and scales as well. So I think it's very important for the leadership team to make time, like you said, maybe in a meeting on a Wednesday or Friday afternoon, to really try and understand this as much as possible. Try and understand this as much as possible. Now, speaking of customer profiling, I want to go back to your previous career really, where, if you've done a lot of psychological profiling, I want to understand how companies could possibly use some of the tips you might share today to understand their customers better, to create key pain points around what their customers are experiencing.
Speaker 2:Wow, you are so in tune, you are so in touch, paying attention to the present needs of your customers in all categories. Just by saying that at your board meeting or in your team meeting, saying we must pay attention to the present needs of our customers, that just by saying that you've already increased your value and awareness, that, of course, of course. That of course, of course. What are they going through? And that will be felt by the way your employees interact with the customers, and the customers will feel that that you want to be sensitive and aware and grow in awareness about their present needs, about their present needs. Now, some ideas, such as offering sales when they would most be appreciated and I think we're seeing this we're certainly seeing this, joanna, a lot in the States that, oh, come late July or early Augustust, the stores are having sales on school supplies, because today school supplies are, are a very if someone has three, four or five children, you know this is a costly expense, so they have sales on these or um, different, uh, non-profit groups have fundraisers to gather up and collect school supplies for people. We know that Christmas is a time where people aren't able to afford buying a dress or a suit or a new sweater or new shoes for the event in December. So maybe the department stores in that community can have free Christmas sales, like in July, and have a Christmas in July sale saying now is the time to buy your outfit for New Year's Eve or something like that. So people appreciate that. They get excited about that. Everyone seems to, or to to, love a sale that has a touch of celebration to it and that might be. But be in touch with how your customers live and, above all, help them save time. We all need more and more time and the convenience of. Well, look at how we are about Amazon delivering to us and how much that saves time. They really maximize on that saves time. They really maximize on saving us time.
Speaker 2:Another idea I have is help your customers feel good when they enter your business or when they buy your product. So let's take entering your business is a coffee shop OK. Well, when they walk in, that's a wonderful smell, ok. So have that fresh coffee, accented maybe by some sort of of fragrance at the door and the zoom of the coffee maker going, and you're going to have an attentive, smiling customer like okay, they've got the energy to create my favorite cup of coffee. What about if your product is a hammer? Okay, okay, well, you know ladies are buying hammers these days. Okay, we know, we sure are. Okay, we know, with barbie, after barbie didn't, didn't, uh, businesses all start packaging things in pink? Okay, so make, make your product bring a smile, okay, and also then say you are a hardware store owner and your employees can have fun selling a product, an item, to someone who doesn't normally buy from them.
Speaker 2:So make them feel good when they come into the store, rather than feeling like well, why would you want something like that? Why would someone like you need that? Okay, we're not even in any circle there. That is someone who has forgotten that they're representing a business and that their job is to make the customer feel good once they come in the store and that you're so glad that they're there and you want them to enjoy their visit, to stay with you and before long, that employee who might have said that may say well, you know what I kind of like that, and then he's into the energy of it all too.
Speaker 2:But remember, we all respond to kindness and attentiveness. Help your customer feel valued, important. How many times are we hearing today that the neighbor down the street feels that no one is even paying attention to her, or or the person who is coaching the girls basketball team says no one even said thank you for his service okay. We have all these situations where people do not are doing wonderful things but they're not, they're not made to feel like they were appreciated and important. When people are volunteering at an event or say they have given a year's service on a board of directors, say, of an owner's association, okay, an owner's association is a challenging place to be a board member, okay. So, above all, the president, the outgoing president, needs to thank his team or her team, their team, and say you know, we've been through a lot together, we've hung in there, we've done our best for the residents, and I want to thank and then say everyone's name.
Speaker 2:Don't just walk out the door and say say everyone's name. Don't just walk out the door and say, well, why should I bring that up? Because it was a difficult year? Okay, well, let's rethink that attitude, because the person who said that is not working within the three circles and once they do, they're going to realize that they will so greatly enjoy the energy of being generous with gratitude and attentiveness and valuing others, that they begin to feel different. That happens when we start touching into authentic intelligence or AI plus. The more we're there, the more we want to be there. And finally, joanna, may I just also say this that when it comes to advertising, it would be. There are some people who may be tempted to be manipulative and to twist facts, but it would be best to not even step close to manipulation, because it will not be effective and a waste of funds. If you proceed with a genuine spirit of belief and wanting the best for your customer, the customer is going to feel the difference and will respond long-term if it is a truly genuine connection.
Speaker 1:I love your examples. I couldn't agree more. In the world of advertising, I think, especially in this day and age, as we have millennials, generation Z, that are coming at the forefront of being the decision makers, the main buyers, the main workforce as well. Authenticity is very important to them. So I think if you can display that in your messages, in your advertising, you're already winning as a business. How do you do that better? Well, be in touch with all three circles IQ, eq and SQ. Absolutely, I love those examples. It kind of reminds me of you, know, when you're trying to sell your house here in Australia, the real estate agents tell you like, make sure something, cookies are baking in the oven when they come through to view the house, because it then it makes it feel like a home rather than just a house that they're looking at. And so it's really just about being able to step in people's shoes, your customer's shoes, and seeing you know, make. Yeah, you're right, a lot of women now want to buy hammers because we're quite handy and we love renovating our houses. So, yeah, give us those pink hammers, because that would make us feel amazing. And I think in the world of SaaS and tech, where a lot of the interactions are online. You can still apply those three circles. I think you can still give them a wonderful experience simply by educating them, by offering value free of charge, by being, I think, generous with your time and make you know knowing that time again, like the Amazon business model, for example. That's very important to them as well.
Speaker 1:I'm going to go a little bit sideways with my next question. It's basically you've developed tools for navigating narcissistic warfare. Now, narcissism is a term I've only come to learn and be familiar with, maybe just in the past few years, so it's very new to me, but I do recognize that there are narcissistic personalities out there. A lot of them, unfortunately, are in leadership roles, such as your bosses. How does one get strategies in dealing with such personalities? Say, you're in the workforce, you have a narcissistic boss. You've become aware that that's the case. What can you do?
Speaker 2:Well, Joanna, that's a mighty question and the struggle to discern this is very real, and you and I could have a very long conversation about this topic, but let me give a little bit of a response. I first of all want to give some explanation about the term narcissistic warfare, which is a phenomenon that's spreading within our global society, and acutely so when working to thwart corruption, to expose sexual abuse, a financial crime or a family or community secret. And today we witness this intense dark energy whose focus is to deceive humanity, to be divisive, to wreak havoc and to create chaos and personal relationships, not just at homes, but in the workplace, churches, organizations, universities and in the process of democratic governments and more so. The first thing, I would say, because this is really a huge topic and it is critical today to understand how serious this is to the way the world is working. But it's important to begin by educating yourself on the six types of narcissists and their traits the grandiose narcissist I think that's the most common one.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately is that right.
Speaker 2:That's the one I've met for sure the covert, the communal or the do-gooder there it's very interesting. The malignant okay, we we have a lot of the malignant um narcissists that are in public view these days. The neglectful and the self-righteous narcissist. Getting to know these six types helps people become aware of the specific patterns. Just knowing the patterns helps you say okay, wait a minute, I'm seeing this. Oh boy, I better be very careful. I need I need to heighten my awareness, I need to heighten my sensitivity and be on my toes to protect myself.
Speaker 2:But educating yourself on the tactics of gaslighting and gaslighting is a type of emotional abuse in these scenarios that pour out of the narcissistic behavior is one of just creating dramatic warfare, contentious, twisted interactions, twisted interactions. But we have to educate ourselves on the tactics of gaslighting and common gaslighting scenarios because this can help prepare us so we can step away and remove ourselves from the emotional abuse. We don't have to stay stuck Nope, nope, nope, it's not what you signed up for. Uh, someone can help you with this, someone within the company, someone within your organization. But but you do not have to remain stuck and just be there as the um, as the person, as the door, doorstep, uh, or the doormat, understanding the characteristics of the narcissistic personalities and their love for dramatic warfare provides the key information.
Speaker 2:So, if you start seeing these patterns starting to come together and realizing, oh boy, here she starts again. All right, who are they going to pull in this time into it, and who are they ganging up with and who's siding with whom? Well, these are very difficult situations that have to be untangled and dismantled one at a time. Learning techniques, uh, that teach you how to disarm the narcissist and unnerve them, and learning how to live in a perpetual state of healing today will help to protect and comfort you. That's the goal by gaining in skills in this arena.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it definitely starts with awareness, I think. So keeping I mean first of all, learning about the different types of narcissistic personalities, which I think we could probably do a whole other podcast on that topic, so I won't dive into specifically those different types of personalities, but maybe the message out there is get awareness, learn more about it and then equip yourself with strategies on what you can do when you think something like gaslighting is happening. And so I'm just thinking an example of gaslighting in the workspace could be. Well, I told you to do that by this date and you're like no, you didn't. Again, that could be just not remembering a specific deadline, but then again it could be, it could be gaslighting by by someone in the workspace.
Speaker 2:um, so really just equipping yourself with those strategies yes, and another one that commonly uh occurs is if there may be two department heads that may be competing a little bit, or perhaps someone in the higher structure. Their departments are vying for key financial benefits or promotions. Well, one of the tactics scenarios is that one department head says to the other oh really, I didn't know, you did things like that to minimize their abilities and to try to make them feel inferior, and it's a mind game game.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, unfortunately, there's a lot of complex personalities and power dynamics in the office and I think you know, even as a founder and a business owner yourself, you probably, as you scale, you'll start to see a lot of those personalities in your team as well. How can leaders navigate difficult personalities, stepping away from narcissism, just maybe complex personalities or personalities that clash within an organization? What can leaders do to navigate this and create a more safe culture and environment for everybody?
Speaker 2:The first thing that's important here to do is to create an employee handbook, that is, a very comprehensive employee code of conduct that has to be in place, and consult with experts in creating this very important tool. You're going to rely upon it a lot, but provide feedback to the difficult personality in hopes of increasing their awareness. Now it may be that they're not conscious of what they might be doing that is interfering with others productivity, but they might change once they realize the discomfort they're creating. But HR needs to determine the severity of the difficult personalities and they must hold them accountable according to their job description and company's workplace standards and policies. And, above all, beware of personalities that create a feeling of anticipatory dread among those who have to meet with them or work with them. The key thing here is if these people are causing undue stress to others, the founders and business leaders may lose employees who do not have the source of support to manage the strain and difficulty.
Speaker 1:Excuse me, and I think that's the toughest part, isn't it losing really good employees because you haven't been able to catch this early on and give them that support that's needed? And I think you know, as a founder myself, I think my key takeaways just be in tune, just have the awareness if this is happening and how everyone's feeling. Maybe that's done through one-on-one meetings with everybody and then just you know, having the strategies to deal with something like that, because it's a big cost to a business when they lose a good employee. I think so, yes, definitely something, a key takeaway. My last question for you, very positive question what do you look forward to in the future?
Speaker 2:Oh, joanna, what a beautiful question. Come what may, I have a forever belief in the potential of humanity, and I've written this book because we are such a broken world, and I look forward to helping every person, every family, every county, every state and all nations answer the call within us that beckons us to lead ourselves back. I was born with a tremendous capacity to love and to care. It's just how I was born. I can't change that. I wrote this book to create a pathway for us to begin anew, and so what I look forward to is I look forward to watching the world grow and to helping it grow.
Speaker 1:I love that we need a lot more positive people in this world, I think. So I think we're blessed to have you and Jan, thank you so much. You've been very generous with your time today and again, slightly different episode, but I think so important to dive into the psych of our customers as well, as you know, equip ourselves with strategies of dealing with difficult personalities, potentially employees, potentially customers, and I think we'd all love to learn a lot more about those three circles of IQ, eq and SQ. So I very much look forward to reading your book once it's out.
Speaker 2:I'm so grateful. Thank you so much for this opportunity.
