SaaS Stories
SaaS Stories is my not-so-secret quest to learn what it truly takes to succeed in the world of SaaS—and I’m inviting you along for the ride! I have the pleasure of sitting down with brilliant minds and industry trailblazers to explore their journeys, uncovering the secrets behind their growth, the gaps they spotted in the market, and what really drives them.
It’s not all smooth sailing—there are challenges, unexpected turns, and moments of reflection where they share what they’d love to change about their journey. Think of it as a candid, insider’s look into the world of SaaS, with just the right amount of curiosity, empathy, and wit.
Join me as I dive deep, selfishly soak up all the insights, and hopefully share a little inspiration with you along the way—one SaaS story at a time.
SaaS Stories
SaaS Blueprint: Lessons in Scaling, Fundraising, AI and Leadership with Matt Perrott
Matt Perrott shares his journey as co-founder of BuildPass, a platform revolutionising construction management for small builders. The episode explores the challenges in construction tech, the importance of user-friendly design, and the strategic decisions that have fostered BuildPass's rapid growth.
Discussion points include:
• Importance of user-friendly software design for adoption
• Key strategies in BuildPass's scaling and sales approach
• Insights from fundraising experiences in the market
• Role of AI in enhancing communication and workflow
• Navigating leadership challenges and empowering teams
• The impact of fragmentation in the construction tech landscape
• Advice for entrepreneurs on handling the emotional journey
Welcome everybody to another episode of SAS Stories. Today I'm joined by local Australian all the way in Melbourne, Matt Parrott from BuildPass. Welcome Matt.
Speaker 2:Thanks, chyna, nice to be here.
Speaker 1:You're having a heatwave today as well. Tell us about what Melbourne's like today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's classic Melbourne. It's starting off a bit cold, getting to 38 degrees Celsius by 5pm alongside some thunderstorms, so we're in for a wild one.
Speaker 1:Exciting times.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So a little bit of background on how you started your journey into SaaS and what made you co-found BuildPass. Love to hear your story.
Speaker 2:For sure. So at university, I made the mistake of trying to start a tech business while studying, not knowing tech and not having much money. So I basically paid some developers to build this app idea that I thought would take over the world, wasted all my money quite quickly, didn't have much to show for it, but the thing that it did do was it got me more interested in tech. I was studying commerce and civil engineering at the time, wanted to get into construction and got me more interested in tech, so I changed from civil engineering to software engineering, thought that after a two-year degree I'd go out and build my app or whatever I wanted to do, ended up working for other startups as a software engineer, went to a REA group where I helped build some of the tools surrounding realestatecomau, and then finally found my way back into startups and was able to combine construction and technology with what is now BuildPass.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that is very brave and admirable. I mean, that's certainly not what the rest of us were doing in the university days. So well done. I'm sure it was a great learning experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great learnings, a bit of pain, but I think that's where learning often comes from.
Speaker 1:So tell me what gap and what problem is BuildPath solving today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we help builders efficiently run a construction site. So you can imagine construction sites have lots of people on them, lots of paperwork, lots of admin, lots of things can go wrong, and they do, and they often do, and so we put all of those workflows into a really easy to use platform.
Speaker 2:One of the things we realized with the industry was the massive builders had all of these great tools they could use, but the smaller builders there wasn't anything for them, or at least nothing that was easy enough to use without having a whole team running it. So that's the gap that we found in the market. We started with a point solution being a health and safety app, and then we've expanded from there to be a site operations tool, so anything that happens on a construction site you can run through our platform.
Speaker 1:Amazing and it definitely sounds like something they absolutely need. I mean, every construction story I hear is close to a horror story. There are things going wrong. There's so many delays. They could absolutely use all the help they can get. Is it? Did you find that with this type of audience, you had to do a lot of education, awareness, or were they quite happy to adopt something that was, you know, this helpful?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the key is building it in a really simple way. Our whole philosophy has been, rather than building a tool that looks like a spreadsheet, build a tool that feels more like a social media app. Plenty of people can just jump on their phone and use TikTok or Snapchat or Sportsbet, whatever it might be. We wanted our software to feel like that. There's no reason that it can't. So, even though we're B2B business to business we want it to feel like business to consumer and because we've taken that mentality into our software, it's low training required. It's really easy just to adopt, and that has really helped with the adoption curve and getting builders just to understand exactly what we do and getting up and running really quickly.
Speaker 1:That's actually a really good point, because a lot of the clients I work with a lot of the time their competitor is Excel spreadsheets. Everyone's using Excel spreadsheets for manual tasks and, you know, in the world of B2B as well, things can get quite complex. So there is a whole awareness and training piece, but it sounds like you've very cleverly bypassed that. So that's, yeah, social media. Who would have thought?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and look, there's always. We have help centers and we've got a local team that can provide training. There's always people who want that, but I think the lower the barrier to entry is, the better it is for us, but the better it is for our customers as well.
Speaker 1:Definitely, definitely, and they're pretty busy doing what they do best and you've grown quite rapidly since launching in 2021. And what were some of the key decisions that you made that helped with the scaling? I mean, obviously, the user-friendliness of your software is one. Anything else that comes to mind?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So there's probably two main elements there's the technology side and then there's the go-to-market side. So, from a tech standpoint, we chose tools that were really easy to build fast on but were also scalable in the long term, and we were lucky that we had the background of building scaled tools. I worked at Real Estate Accommodator U. My business partner worked at Seek, and these are some of the most used apps in Australia. So we had those, I guess, standards that we could build into the app from the start. But because we built it all in the same language, it meant that if we got a software developer on our team, they could work on the front end, the back end and the app without having to have a bespoke skill set. So that was one thing that allowed us to move really fast from a technology perspective, but also it's allowed us to scale On the go-to-market side.
Speaker 2:The main thing that we wanted to figure out at the start was a repeatable motion, so I did all of the sales initially. I think it was the first 150 or 200 customers that we signed. I did all of those sales myself before we got a sales team in, and the reason I did that was I wanted to understand exactly what the pain points were, how we were going to sell and how we could do it efficiently. And once I figured that out, that helped us to actually scale our sales team. And now that we know that we've got the unit economics right if we make this many calls and book this many demos and we'll get this many customers, we've been able to scale that sales team. If we make this many calls and book this many demos and we'll get this many customers, we've been able to scale that sales team. We've got an amazing sales team now and that was part of the reason that we were able to raise some money, because people have realized that if you put more money into this repeatable motion, it can scale efficiently.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Speaking of money raised, I think you've raised a significant amount. Have you found in the Australian market? That's been an easy process, a difficult process.
Speaker 2:How did you go about securing funding? Yeah, it's been up and down. So we raised our first amount of money, which was very early on. It was just Aaron and I. We had built the first version of the platform and had a few customers, and we raised a million dollars to scale out our team and to start building the rest of the product. That was quite easy to do, because what we found was, when you're very early on, there's not many things to benchmark you against and people are just backing you and they're backing the idea and, from a timing perspective, it was in 2021, the market was really frothy, everyone was putting money into things, so it was super easy. Sorry, it wasn't easy, but it was easier.
Speaker 2:When we recently raised money, it was a lot more difficult. We were more progressed as a business. The market has come back, investors have been more rational, they're taking more time and we had a lot of metrics and benchmarks that we're looking at, and so it was really important that we were across that and we were prepared for those conversations and that we actually prepared for the capital raise. So it was more difficult, but I don't think that was a bad thing. It meant that we knew that the companies that wanted to put in money, the VC firms, really liked our business and backed what we were doing. So the fact that we were able to get the capital raise done gives us a lot of confidence that we are onto a good thing and we are doing the right thing. We're not just sort of crazy and in our own heads.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I can see how it feels better when you get it after it's been a hard process and an easy process. It kind of gives you a confidence in your product. What were some of the metrics that VCs were looking at?
Speaker 2:So the main thing that our lead investor in the most recent capital raise was looking at was probably our capital efficiency and so the fact that, like I mentioned before, we knew our numbers. If we were putting this many dollars into our go-to-market, what was going to come out, and was it repeatable? Because one of the things that a VC is looking for is when is the right time to put more capital into something, to put fuel on the fire. They don't want to be putting capital in just for all of these risky bets. They kind of want to know what you're going to do with the money. So that was one thing.
Speaker 2:I think the other thing was we had started to prove that in our market we could sell to a part of the market that was traditionally underserved. So the recent lead investor, when we first raised money, passed on investing because he said the market you're selling into being small and medium-sized businesses in construction is really difficult to sell into and they wanted some proof points. Once we had those proof points, they could see that it was possible and it's actually the biggest part of the market In the construction industry the tier one and tier two builders. There's only so many of them, there's a few hundred or probably less than 1,000. Whereas the small builders there's about 20,000 or 30,000 just in Australia, let alone globally. So I think VC firms are also looking for your total addressable market and for us it was really really big and we had finally got those proof points that we could sell into that market.
Speaker 1:Now you're speaking my language. Total addressable market. Did they have anything to do with, like, the marketing campaigns, the marketing strategies? Did they get quite involved in that?
Speaker 2:No, the investors.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:They don't get too involved. We have regular meetings with them about what we're doing, but they're not sort of in the details of what our marketing strategy is. They're more there to help, guide and look, our investors are what they would call bad news investors. When things are going well, they're sort of like that's great, whatever, but they want to hear about the bad news, the problems that they can help with, and so, yeah, they don't typically get into the details of things unless we really ask them to.
Speaker 1:Got it. Biggest challenges faced, mainly for anyone out there looking to get into construction tech. You know what were some of the challenges you had to navigate. What were some of the challenges you had to navigate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in construction and technology in general, in our market it's a blue collar industry. Typically there is lots of people out on site that aren't necessarily used to technology. So the end user and servicing them is really important, because even the people we sell to sitting in an office and the directors making decisions, but the people using the product are out on site. So I think that's one of the considerations is, the main user is not always the decision maker in the purchase and you need to marry those two things up, because it's all well and good to get the sale, but if the team doesn't like using it, if their own staff don't like using it, who are our power users? We're not going to keep them around. That feedback will go back and they will feel like they're not getting value for money there.
Speaker 2:I think the other thing in the construction tech landscape is before, say, five years ago, there wasn't many solutions out there, but in the last five years there's been a real influx of new startups servicing the construction space, lots of VC money flowing in and what that means is it's created a very fragmented market and for the end user, the buyer, there's all of these different solutions out there that do different things and people are trying to sell them on different stuff.
Speaker 2:None of the solutions talk together. So, as a, say, a builder, there's so many things out there that you could be using. It gets really confusing. So it's a very fragmented landscape and what a lot of the time we're trying to do is to simplify that, say this is where we fit into the picture, this is what we can do, this is what we can't do, and it's a real balance between trying to be a platform that does absolutely everything versus a point solution that just does one thing, and we actually don't think that either of those approaches is the best. If you try to do absolutely everything, you won't do anything well, but if you just do one thing and focus on that, it's hard to service the broader market. Maybe the larger companies will use that, but a smaller firm doesn't want to have 30 different tools to run their construction site. So we think that there's a balance between that. There's somewhere in between, and that's what we're trying to solve with this site operations tool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really interesting. I completely agree. You can't service everybody because then if you try to be everything to everyone, you end up being nothing to no one. But um I, it's interesting to say, you know, niching can also be detrimental. So, kind of sitting somewhere in the middle and you're right, I think, with a lot of the the companies, they want multiple solutions, they want integrations. So, yeah, being able to kind of maybe start with a niche and scale to something a little bit more bigger, would that be a good solution.
Speaker 2:Totally. I was actually going to caveat that with starting with a niche is a good thing and that's probably a learning for us. We went a little bit too broad too quickly and kind of had to pull that back in. So I absolutely agree If you can, even if it's a small market initially, if you can just service that market really well with one thing, that's a good place to start. It's more in the longer term, especially with where technology is evolving to with AI, it's getting a lot easier to use AI to spin up an app to do something. So we have more of a long-term view that having a very niche app that does one thing is probably not the right long-term approach. Again, that might be a controversial opinion, happy to be proven wrong as time plays out, but that's just our view of the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, speaking of AI, how are you using it to help and are you implementing it into your software?
Speaker 2:we are. Yeah, so we've gone really heavily into ai. Um, we decided to do that because we saw how much value it could provide our customers. We were a little bit nervous to do it because, um, we thought that our customers might not like ai, they might be scared by it, it might push people away. But once we saw that everyone was getting really interested in it and how it could help their business, that's when we said, okay, we should really look at this.
Speaker 2:And so one of the big things that we've been looking at is when we think of the biggest problems in the construction industry. A lot of it comes down to a breakdown in communication and the fact that the data hasn't been properly input to where it needs to go. Someone hasn't told someone something, or it was. Really, they couldn't remember what app they were meant to put this information into. It just doesn't get done.
Speaker 2:So we're looking at ways of trying to mold the technology to how the users are actually operating, and on a construction site, people are usually doing things with their hands, and it's a lot of voice. It's having conversations on the phone, it's speaking to each other. So where AI really shines is in things like voice to text rather than having to enter all of the information into a certain part of the app, or it can listen into a conversation, like a meeting note taker does, and it generates all the action items. That we think is going to be really powerful in a field space like construction, where workers are out on the move and not necessarily having access to fancy apps and computers and things like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and it's a very exciting world to see where it can take us. You mentioned it was a very fragmented market. Do you think your competitors are using AI? Is that maybe your point of difference?
Speaker 2:Some definitely are. I think some are dragging their feet on it a little bit and waiting to see how the market plays out. We again, our long-term view of the world is there won't be any AI software in a few years. All software will just use AI because of how powerful it is, and that if people aren't leaning into it, they're probably going to get left behind. So, look, we've definitely got competitors doing implementing AI into their software. Our view of who's going to win this space is not the ones that are necessarily developing the fanciest AI internally, but how can we leverage the best AI that is out there in the fastest way? How quickly can we change our platform to use these amazing models that are changing literally every day? And there's so much money like VC money going into training these amazing foundational models rather than trying to compete there. Let's leverage that. Let's use them and get them into our product really quickly, faster than anyone else will. And yeah, that's, we think, going to be our recipe for success.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think speed is very important. I think it was Bill Perkins who said a very successful entrepreneur. He said I'm not the smartest, I'm not, you know, the most intelligent, I'm not the richest, but I'm always the fastest, and the fastest to fail and learn. So I've already learned 10 mistakes that we've made when our competitors haven't even started yet.
Speaker 2:Totally, and it's one thing that startups have an uphill battle. It's not easy being a startup. You've usually got less resources, less team, you don't have the customers, you don't have the geographical presence, but the one thing that you do have against incumbents is the ability to move fast and to learn quickly. So I totally agree with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so how many on your team at the moment?
Speaker 2:We have 35. 35, amazing Across the globe.
Speaker 1:So attracting the right talent obviously very important, crucial. What do you look for when hiring? Who was your first hire as well, you know, probably on the technical side, you know to develop this but then who was the next person?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, yep, so first hire. You're right, was a software engineer. It was a guy called James that both Aaron and I knew really well from real estate Shout out to.
Speaker 2:James. Shout out to James. He's built a lot of the platform and is still doing so, and he's amazing. The next hire was Tessa. She was actually on the design side, so we really valued the product itself rather than necessarily trying to sell it too early. Like I mentioned before, I did a lot of the sales early, so a lot of our early hires were in the product space and we still have that in our DNA. Our product is everything to us.
Speaker 2:So but in general, what we look for in early stage hires and we still look for this because we still consider ourself really early is people who have super high agency.
Speaker 2:They believe that they can see change in the world and their actions are going to actually impact our customers, our business, and really back themselves to do that and not always have to be told what to do or how to do something, but understand the business objective and say this is how I'm going to do it and go get it done. Also, the ability to wear multiple hats. Startups have so many things to do and I think specializing too early in or getting someone in that says this is the only thing I do, this is my role and anything else I'm not going to do it. It just doesn't work for startups. So even I would say probably up to a hundred people, we're still going to hire for more generalists that can do many things, wear multiple hats. We're still going to hire for more generalists that can do many things, wear multiple hats and it starts to specialize over time. But yeah, I think being too restricted into a specialty can really hurt a startup.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. It sounds like you've grown through product let growth. You know, by having a big focus on the product and just letting that kind of grow the market, you probably get a lot of referrals as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we do. We get a lot of referrals because of the product. And, yeah, the term product-led growth can I think it means different things to different people. We have certainly grown as a result of having a great product. We don't have certain viral mechanics in there that allow the product to just sell itself without salespeople though, um, we do still have a sales team. So I would say we're a product oriented organization that cares a lot for our product and we do get great word of mouth as a result, but it's probably not product-led growth in its purest form.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, sales-led growth. Yeah, Team of 35, that's amazing. I mean, I'm sure it's come with its challenges. Any kind of leadership lessons or challenges that you've come across that you can share with us?
Speaker 2:Probably the biggest thing for me has been shifting from being an individual contributor to being a leader, and I think the biggest change that has to happen, at least for me personally, was communicating what I was thinking properly at all times and all the context that I had.
Speaker 2:Because as a leader in a business, you see everything that's going on and you come to conclusions on things and you act in that way, but it's easy to forget that not the whole organization has been privy to those conversations. So what I've had to do is really force myself to say, okay, what context can I provide here in this decision? Or think about everyone else that's in this meeting or in this Slack channel. Do they understand everything that I understand and the why of why we're doing something? Because if I can set that, then we've got a whole team of people to execute and they'll execute in the right way. So that's been a real shift for me, coming from an engineering mindset to being a leader. I spent basically all my time in email and on Slack and on video calls now and it's just a shift in mindset. But I think leaders setting context and providing people with the tools and enabling them to do their best work and being aligned with the vision. That's the most important thing that you can do.
Speaker 1:I think you've learned a great lesson quite quickly actually. I was recently at a panel on strategy and I was listening to some people that have done really well and they actually said you know, if you have a smaller team you know less than 100, for example it's really beneficial to communicate your strategy with them, like your goals. Where is this company headed? What is our strategy? What is our mission, our purpose? Make sure that it floats down to the bottom. You know it comes from the top all the way to the bottom and everyone feels like they've been included, they're working towards a common goal. It really does, you know, create a good culture within the team.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it allows autonomous thinking as well. You know, we've always said we want to empower everyone in the company to have an impact and to do the right thing and not have to always ask permission to do stuff. But going alongside that, you need to provide people with enough context to make those decisions, because otherwise it will just have a disparate team of people just doing their own thing. So yeah, absolutely, I think we've got to empower everyone in the company to have all of the knowledge and to be aligned on the vision so that they can act more autonomously.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. Coming back to the construction industry, what are some inefficiencies that you see, you know even today that technology can help solve?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, we've talked about the fragmented landscape. There's so many tools that don't talk to each other, so I think there's more work to do there, and also just the breakdown in communication. So we see that any construction project that gets delayed is usually because of a clash in schedules or labor not being properly allocated, someone forgetting to call someone telling them they're not going to be at this job. So it often comes down to a breakdown in communication. And if you look at the root cause of that, what we think it is is construction sites are so busy and complex and there's so many things going on. It's too hard to communicate everything.
Speaker 2:So that's where we think your technology can really help you. If we have, especially, ai tools that are helping to digest all of this information, providing insights, recommending things about. You know this schedule change has happened. Should we communicate it to these people? That's where we think there's the biggest impact for the construction industry to make sure that we don't have these delays, that things don't get built in the wrong way and have to be fixed, and it's really costly. So, yeah, I think it sounds cliche, but it really does come down to a communication breakdown.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't think it's cliche at all. I think it makes complete sense. So many industries probably suffer from the communication issue. So, yeah, that's a good shout For all the founders listening to the podcast right now. They're probably thinking they've probably started something already. You know, maybe they're struggling with it. What's one bit of advice you can give them to really help keep them going?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that in startups they're very much a roller coaster emotionally uh, the highs are very high and the lows are very low.
Speaker 2:And there's something to be said for stepping back from that a little bit and understanding that there's going to be good days and there's going to be bad days, and almost accepting that up front, being like, well, I've had three good days this week, there's probably going to be a bad one coming, and just being able to ride in between and look at the long-term vision. So are we going towards our long-term goal? Because if you get too caught up in just the day-to-day and you know, I'm really happy because we got this customer, I'm really sad because this person left you can lose vision or lose sight of the long-term vision. And so I think it's. It's kind of having this ability to hold those two thoughts in your head, um, that kind of dissonance of I'm gonna look long term but I'm gonna act day-to-day in the short term. So I would just say, um, try and remove the emotional part a little bit from don't get too high on the highs and low on the lows, and just try right in between.
Speaker 1:I love that. That's so true, isn't it the high highs? When you get that client and you're like, ah, that's it. But yeah, again when you lose one, the same thing happens. You just sometimes, as an entrepreneur, feel like you know, one step forward, two steps back. So you're right, I think, having that longer overview of, well, it doesn't matter what's happened this week, what have we achieved in the last year, for example, and what do we? Where do we want to get? Maybe one, two, three years from now? That would really help.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I fear the quote exactly, but it's something like we we overestimate what we'll get done in a day, but underestimate what will get done in a year or whatever the timeframe is, and I think it's so true. So, keeping your sights set on the long term, are we moving incrementally towards where we want to be? Because it is a long game. There's not many startups that are sort of exiting after a few years and having great results, and I don't think have been in the mindset to try to do that would be good either. If that's if you're trying to start a business just to flip it in two years, I personally don't think you're going to do very well anyway. So it is a long game and as long as you're moving incrementally towards that goal, and that's great and enjoy the journey, there's so much learning and, um, I wouldn't prefer be doing anything else, so, um, you know, just being able to enjoy it as well yeah, absolutely like.
Speaker 1:Don't think of it as failure, think of it as learnings and try and enjoy it every step of the way. Totally matt. My last question for you um, you seem quite young, so I I feel weird asking you know, if you were to go back to your younger self, what advice would you give, maybe a few years ago, when you first launched 2021,? Is there something you'd go back and say to yourself don't do this or do this differently.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say it's never too early to invest in people, even while you're caught up in the day-to-day of just executing.
Speaker 2:Getting stuff done. Making sure you're building the right team, that the people around you feel like they're on the journey with you and that they feel valued, is really important, and I think the other thing that I'd say is there's a lot of advice around. You know, startups are going to be chaos at the start. Just do stuff really quickly, and while that is true, I think you don't want to do that at the expense of having good systems, either in your business or in your life, because one of the things that I always say is that a bad system is better than no system, or a bad process is better than no process, because you can learn from it. So at least set up some hypotheses of what you want to achieve, set up some basic systems of how you're going to do it, and then you can reassess. So, in the chaos of everything, think a little bit longer term, because otherwise I think you'll get burnt out or you won't move in the right direction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that's been our. That's kind of our every second year or odd year goal. You know, in even years the goal is to grow and then in the odd years the goal is to optimize. So it's things like how can we improve processes, systems, things like that, to optimize, and then we can think about growing again because, um, then you get all the scaling challenges. Coming back to what you said earlier about investing in people, I think a lot of I mean all businesses really have this issue is that they know they need to hire someone but they're waiting maybe to land that next client before they do. What would be your advice there? Do you say, like, just do it and you'll get the client later? You know it's not a decision you'll regret. Or do you think it just do it and you'll get the client later? Um, you know it's not a decision you regret, or do you? Do you think it's better to wait?
Speaker 2:it depends on the business and obviously you know cash flow is something you need to to manage. So, um, you know, if you have raised money and you have some, we have sometimes hired the right people and hired them earlier than we probably would have been comfortable with, but they have paid off in earlier than we probably would have been comfortable with, but they have paid off in the long run. So we have been comfortable doing that. We had the buffer of having raised money, so we had a bit more flexibility there. So that plays into it.
Speaker 2:But in general with hiring, we have learned to hire more slowly and even though you might have an immediate burning pain, getting someone in quickly might feel like the right decision. But I've learned to trust my gut more and that if, unless a hire just feels absolutely right, then they're probably not and it is worth waiting for the next one, the next one. And we have countless examples of where we've had a job add up for a long time. We've done lots of interviews and then, like at the last minute, a application has come through and just as we're about to close the job application and that's been the best one and we've hired that person. So if I could give any advice there, it's not to just jump at the first people who seem to be okay. Wait to find the people who are amazing. Go after them and hire a bit more slowly, because the short-term pain of having a bit more to do and being a bit busier is not greater than the longer-term pain of hiring incorrectly.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Matt, thank you so much for being on the show. I think we've had some really good insights. I've certainly learned a lot. I'm sure a lot of the founders out there you know feel really inspired by some of the advice today as well. So much appreciated, thank you.
Speaker 2:No probs. Thanks for having me on. It's been a great chat.
